Eek, markers that move with clips? My first thought is that they should mark places on the timeline to mark sections and not move when clips are moved…
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Which is used on the timeline, not on the clips. Markers are not for the clips. Like I said, if it’s meant to be specifically tied to a clip then it would be something like a clip marker or as is known in some other editors a flag.
In any case, @Austin brought up a good question. I would suggest in the menu/options list that is specifically for the Markers feature in Shotcut, there could be an option there for Ripple Markers. When turned on, and you move clips in the timeline with the other ripple options on, then there the markers would move according to that ripple. I think that would make sense. 
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Imagine a marker near the end of the timeline. Then ripple delete a clip. You could end up with a marker that is beyond the end of the timeline, which is probably not what you intended.
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In my current concept, markers would conform to the current “ripple” buttons in the timeline. Do you think there should be separate “ripple” buttons for markers? I’m afraid that would be confusing.
I am designing the marker system so that in the future markers could be added to individual clips. but that will not be included in the first release.
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I suggest that because there could be scenarios where someone would like to ripple the clips around but not move the markers that have been set.
That’s good to hear.
Also, just to add to the suggestion about chapter stops, there is another use case I forgot to add: Youtube. There is that feature on youtube that if you list the timestamps along with a title for each section in the description box then the youtube player will list them as chapter stops for navigation. Seeing as how producing content for youtube is a very common purpose for so many using Shotcut, a feature like that would come very much in handy. After a user finishes their edit, then can set chapter stops with the markers and there could be perhaps an export option to produce a txt file with the chapter stops and the names written in the format that is ready for youtube.
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@brian , your work on this is amazing. Thank you! Without wishing to inundate you further, I just had one more thought - it would be nice to be able not only to export between markers, but also to save a region as an MLT (use case - to mixdown a multi-tracked section into a single track). Just a thought.
Sounds good to me. I would agree, no need then for “ripple” buttons for markers I think…
Consider this: If you wanted to ripple across several tracks except for one, you have the ability to prevent rippling that track by locking it. But now if you wanted to ripple across all tracks except for that one track and the markers, how would you go about preventing the rippling of those markers?
That’s a really good point. If video is being synchronized to a music track, the markers could indicate where the next cut based on the music track should be. The music track is often locked while the video tracks are manipulated (including rippled) to match the music. In this scenario, the markers would need to be locked too or they would no longer match the music.
@drm and @austin - I take your point. So yes, maybe there should be an option to either lock or ripple the markers? Maybe a right-click menu in the marker “track”?
I’m kinda feeling like if there is a distinction between timeline markers and clip markers, then the need for a ripple toggle might not even exist. Timeline markers wouldn’t ripple because they mark absolute time. Clip markers would ripple (if ripple is on) because they mark relative time. Everything is pretty straight-forward in that world.
The workflow examples described below were my original response before realizing the use cases for absolute vs relative markers. My original response assumed that clip markers don’t exist… and it gets a little messy:
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I would expect marker ripple or marker lock to be a very common toggle when syncing anything to music.
Another use case is a reaction video where markers indicate where in the source video that reactions should be added. The response video is manipulated extensively (to remove dead air and find a good take), but the source video stays constant like a locked music track, and so should the markers. (I’m referring to response videos that leave the source video playing and duck the audio, as opposed to pausing the source video.)
Yet another scenario might be having a screencast tutorial or gaming video as the locked syncing track, and markers indicate where narration should be recorded and added in post. Ripple should affect narration being manipulated into place, but not the base video or the markers that indicate sync points.
The right-click menu might be a little slow for a common feature if that is its only location. All the other ripple options are on the timeline toolbar, so to me, it would make sense to add a marker ripple button there also. The nice thing about the right-click menu is that it enables the display and capture of a shortcut key.
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As stated above, an alternative option for these “locked track” editing workflows is to apply markers directly to the locked music clip. Then the other clips can be manipulated any way necessary without messing up the timing on the locked base clip. A toggle for marker ripple might be unnecessary if the option exists to apply markers directly to a clip, and the track lock extends to markers too. But that feature wasn’t slated for the first release, so the alternative workflow for these examples is ripple markers on/off.
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Wow, so many ideas.
I am happy with whatever is developed but agree with those who suggest that there is a case for being able to choose whether markers should ripple edit or not.
Again, if markers were track based, you could just lock or unlock the tracks to control what ripples and what doesn’t.
Also agree that a simpler solution which is deliverable is preferred to a more complex one which would take much more development.
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Je comprend bien cette subtilité, c’est pourquoi je pense que le plus simple pour la bonne compréhension de la majorité des utilisateurs serait de bien faire la différence entre les 2
- Un Marqueur est un repère fixe dans la chronologie et doit donc rester à sa place tant que l’on ne le change pas de place. Il doit donc être placé dans la règle.
- Un marqueur lié à un clip doit se déplacer avec ce clip. Pour éviter les confusions je pense qu’il doit s’appeler différemment (j’aime bien le terme de Drapeau), qu’il doit être placé sur le clip et si possible avoir une apparence différente.
Commençons par les marqueurs et ensuite développons les drapeaux.
I understand this subtlety, that’s why I think that the simplest way for the good understanding of the majority of the users would be to make the difference between the 2
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A Marker is a fixed marker in the timeline and must therefore remain in its place as long as you do not change its place. It must therefore be placed in the rule.
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A marker linked to a clip must move with this clip. To avoid confusion I think it should be called something different (I like the term Flag), it should be placed on the clip and if possible have a different appearance.
Let’s start with the markers and then develop the flags.
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That’s a much faster way of saying what I was trying to say above. With this distinction, a dedicated “ripple markers” toggle button would be unnecessary. There would be a marker/flag concept for all use cases, handling both absolute and relative timings. Sounds like we’re on the same page.
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That’s assuming that it’s only in the case of putting markers according to one clip. But when I posed my question earlier to @jonray, I didn’t limit it to that. Think of a scenario where someone has let’s say 6 tracks and only wants to ripple 3 of them and leave the markers where they are. What then? By not having a Ripple Markers option, they would have to redo the markers after rippling.
Now you could say, “Well they should put the markers on the clips beforehand” except we know that when editing a long project there are issues that come up that one did not foresee beforehand and it’d be good to have an option there just in case. Also it could very well be that the user is simply putting markers according to the overall time of the project and not specifically to any one clip especially as clips can be replaced and changed at any time.
I’m curious about workflows in general, but I haven’t wrapped my mind around this one yet.
If somebody put markers on the timeline (marking absolute time), then the markers wouldn’t move, which is what you wanted.
If somebody went to the trouble of marking a specific frame in a specific clip, then rippled something and left the markers in place, wouldn’t that undo all the precise marking they did earlier? What relevant point in time would a marker be indicating if it was attached to a clip but then told not to move with a ripple?
There might be a case for it. My imagination just hasn’t thought of it yet.
How about a scenario that isn’t locked to just one clip? It could be that it’s whole section with several tracks and the timeline markers are there to mark many things that involved them (e.g. Marker 1 to indicate adding a needed sound effect in A1, Marker 2 indicates adding a title in V3, Marker 3 to indicate a clip to be added later in V2, etc…). Then let’s say the editor likes all of that but afterward wants to have that section come in later on in the project. So the editor ripples that section of clips and wants the timeline markers for that section to follow accordingly.
I see what you’re saying. Maybe there is an easier option.
The fundamental issue when moving clips and rippling it to markers is deciding which clip controls the movement of markers, or whether some lock button says the markers shouldn’t move at all. Markers on the timeline ruler are not attached to any specific clip or other relative-timing event, yet we are trying to manipulate markers by using clips they aren’t attached to. It seems to be prone to confusion or complexity no matter what.
Perhaps there is a middle ground. What if markers on the timeline ruler remain rooted in absolute time, meaning not influenced by the movement of clips. However, directly moving a timeline marker itself has the option to ripple the move to future markers on the timeline. This would not affect clip markers at all. This way, absolute timeline markers and relative clip markers remain fully separate entities that can’t mess each other up.
In your scenario of moving a block of clips to a later section in the timeline, there would be two moves involved if using this method. The first is moving the clips themselves, which naturally carry the clip markers with them. The second is the timeline markers with ripple, to align them with the newly moved clips. So yes, it would be double work for this scenario, but this should be pretty rare. If someone is doing it frequently, they should be putting “add sound effect to A1” markers directly on the A1 clip where the sound effect should go in the first place, and have enough practice to do it right the first time.
@brian be like, “why do I even talk to you people” lol. You endure with us graciously, Brian. Kudos.
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This is fantastic discussion and I am very grateful for it. It is very helpful for me to hear all the ideas. Maybe some will not be covered in the first release. Maybe some will never materialize. But at least I can see the ideas and consider them as I go.
The locking idea is clever and might be a way to avoid another ripple button.
I still do not think of markers as belonging to a track. I think of them as decorators on the timeline header. If markers belong to a track, then I suppose you could have more than one marker track?
I also appreciate the comment that maybe the first “ripple” just needs to be to ripple markers downstream from a moved marker. I think that will be a good place to start.
Thanks again for all the thoughtful discussion. Keep it going.
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I think most people were talking about markers on the timeline ruler or markers embedded in clips. I’m not sure what the mechanics for a track marker would even look like, or how it would be more useful than the other two.
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